That's a bit unfair... I think a lot of skirmishers, and rightly so, are afraid that any picking of holes in the Act as it stands will lead to nobody being able to get RIFs, full stop.

I'm a skirmisher as well as a collector and while I believe very strongly indeed that those who solely collect and don't skirmish have as much right as anyone else to get hold of RIFs, I don't think this is the way to go about it.

I think that we, skirmishers, collectors and prop-makers, anyone with any real interest in RIFs, de-acs, or anything related to them should all be working together rather than in fractured little groups... But that's not going to happen is it? Each group has their own agenda and they all seem to be of the 'my way or the highway' mindset.

It happened with real firearms, and it'll happen with replicas and low powered air weapons... Wait and see. We're our own worst enemy.






Si, I completely follow your train of thought, but that's not how the law and the defence work in reality, at least so far.

I've already bought several non-Airsoft RIFs since the VCRA kicked in and had no problems with HMRC or the places I've bought them from on production of my skirmishing credentials, and I'm not the only one being able to use the defence in this way.

Crazy eh?

I think the you might have missed the train on that one. The airsoft trade bodies spent gawd knows how much money lobbying/arse-licking politicians while the law was in consultation and barely managed to get the concessions that they did.

Let me state my objection in the strongest possible language: You have asked members of this forum for money to investigate this avenue. I'm not saying your intentions are anything other than honest, but it's my opinion that this won't be effective (other than in the very short-term) and will only cause RIF laws to be tightened.

It appears to me that you are leading people down an alley that is inevitably a dead-end.

An association is good. But it can't be based on the idea that everyone claims that the back of their wardrobe is a museum (or installs disabled toilets and fire exits in their wardrobe and claims it's a museum ). Whether the law views it as a wardrobe or a museum is irrelevant. It won't take long for the law to catch up. And given this Governments past record, they won't be afraid to make difficulty/paper-work for genuine museums if it makes it look that they are doing something (anything!) about gun crime.

It's my opinion only, and I won't argue it any further.

Sorry, should have said 'a lot of'


I understand their fears but we shouldn't let that stop us fighting for collectors' rights. Sorry. We have every right to collect as you have a right to skirmish. If a skirmisher ever said to me "no, you don't have a right to collect" I'd say "no... you don't have a right to skirmish - if you want to be a soldier; join the feckin' Army!

(Don't take the above too seriously... I'm just on a roll here!)


The museum thing? You're probably right. I'll stand-down from that - I'm not too proud to admit it was probably "wishful thinking".

However, what chance have we as an interest group of lobbying if we don't pull together. We must do so or no more Pulseys. Period.

The association can draw up a charter, set rules, catalogue each members pieces. Certified membership could revolve around a (member paid-for) Police check on the National Records?... I'd be in full support of that.


If the AA reaction is anything to go by, no.

Then again, there is no reason why collectors can't get together on their own. After all, we do have a different agenda - a passive one.

People can still legally buy deactivated, REAL firearms (which beggars belief, considering we can't buy plastic Chinese knock-offs). It shouldn't be that difficult to lobby Parliament to allow a regulated body of people to continue to collect as we have for countless years.


 

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"Everybody online... lookin' good".
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I don't think anyone is against you 'fighting' your corner as a collector... Indeed, I think most rational human beings would want you to fight it; just not in this particular manner.





...and...



I know you say 'don't take the above seriously', but I think comments like the above are partly what caused the somewhat caustic reaction from the skirmishers at Arnie's...

As an example, a lot of people (myself included) who skirmish ARE serving or ex-servicemen and women, and don't take the 'Walt' accusations lightly!

The rest are just 'Average Joe' who want to go out on a Sunday and have a bit of fun with their buddies. People take it seriously to different degrees, from fun games to mil-sim, but very few are really wannabe Rambos, and the few that are generally end up being shunned by the rest of the players.





I wouldn't say wishful thinking; you were exploring a potential avenue for your hobby to continue as unmolested as possible given the current regime in the UK. And you did more than a lot of folks would do, you went out and did a fair bit of thorough research and gathered opinions.





There's no problem getting hold of Pulseys at the moment, as long as you're willing to attend a few skirmishes to get them. And no, you shouldn't have to, but as it stands that's the cheapest, quickest and easiest way to do so.






As would I. Regulation is a pain in the proverbial hoop, but if it allows people to do what they want to do, and there simply is no legal alternative, what choice do we have? A few tens of thousands of collectors around the country wont be able to change the law for the better, not in this day and age.





I've seen more aggression, fighting and abuse at one single football match than I have at every skirmish I've ever attended in eight years... And that's a fair few. So to try and justify collectors interests as 'more' valid than 'skirmishers' on the basis that collection is passive is a bit off.

As for collectors getting together on their own, you'll most likely find exactly the same thing happens in the collector circuit as happens in any other semi-large dispersed group of hobbyists... Hell, some costuming groups don't get on to the point of personal insults, and they just dress up for the crack!




It shouldn't be but it is... Look how hard tens of thousands of skirmishers, three governing bodies and a stack of retailers with a pile of cash and some sound legal minds found it to even get a regulatory exemption never mind one written into the law. What makes you think collectors on their own will be able to do so? I'm not being defeatist, that's a serious question.

 
Points taken. And I know you're not all walts. (Just a reaction to some of the posts who implied "we shouldn't have a right to collect so tough-titty".

I agree with you - it's going to be some struggle. And I am not the one to be heading it up as I'm far too passionate - it would get in the way. I've banged my drum enough - if UK collectors want the HCG Pulse Rifle and all the other good stuff coming (but won't/can't skirmish) then forming an association and lobbying is your only chance.

I'm done.

Peace.
 

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"Everybody online... lookin' good".
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I think much like the Airsoft exemption campaign, which was lead by the dealers and retailers I think if anyone's going to be heading this up it's going to have to be someone like Propstore for example.

Like the Airsoft dealers it would be in their financial interest to put time and effort towards looking into this. Personally I'd love to spearhead such a campaign but being freelance if I don't work, I don't get paid.

Harry

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http://www.facebook.com/TheHHACA - @TheHHACA

I'm awaiting feedback from them.

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"Everybody online... lookin' good".
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Keep us up to date!

Hi Guy's

First post here, been viewing the board and there is a lot of usefull and interesting stuff here.

Right down to business, a fair few misconceptions seem to be about regarding the VCRA and airsoft, especially about who, how and what fought the act.

Contuary to popular belief, it wasn't a wealthy trade body that fought the Bill, it was all from individuals pockets and not from a trade organisation. The fight was 2 years long, mainly pushed by one person and was eventually won in the house of Lords following a lot of lengthy lobbying.

Those that fought the Bill had no experience fighting something like this, flew blind, learnt very quickly and eventualy won.

Therefore, get together, form an association and make political waves. Sticking the preverbial head in the sand doesn't make the government go away, it just makes for an easier target. Get together and get organised, a recognisable association has more clout than 10,000 personal letters, it opens doors and gets you politically where you can be noticed, not swept under the table.

Having been in the thick of the fight against the VCRA I understand the act better than most and think the museum defence is a good way to go to legitamise your purchases. It won't affect the airsoft or any other defence in any way and is IMHO a true way of collectors continuing your harmless hobby.

But you must actually set up a museum and allow people to view it, even if that is by appointment. You need a credible paper trail, so a website with pictures of collections and a contact back page (so you don't have to publish personal details) for appointments.

On AA the doubters are worried about the airsoft defence, (which I can understand), but the person who was at the thick end of the campaining thinks the museum defence would stick and as a retailer would sell to a small museum if there was a justifiable, credible and quantifiable paper trail to follow.

Give it a go guy's, you will never know until you try.

Thanks. At least this confirms I'm not going insane.

Also: received an email from the MLA again today... a museum can not only be by appointment, it can be... by invitation only.

This is not legal opinion but to me, that means we can invite our peers. Hang on - didn't I say was done?!

A registered UKARA skirmisher could in fact test the museum defence theory with zero risk.... Enquire within for details.

I personally now favour the association route though.
 

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"Everybody online... lookin' good".
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Hey Miniminan *Waves*

I assume you talked to Frenchie about this?
Or was it someone else you sounded out?

_________________
MSgt, UKCM 42nd Reg., 1st Batt. : Hadrian's Wall. UKCM

Wasteland Workshop
Props, cosplay pieces, upcycled ornamentation, and miscellanea;
For the discerning survivor of the apocalypse.
Steve Fletcher : Maker, Scavenger, and Junksmith.
linktr.ee/wastelandworkshop

 
Reply back from Prop Store. At this time, they "don't see any issues" with being able to import and sell the HCG Pulse Rifle.

I contend that if that's the case, then we should also, as private buyers, be able to import directly.

We need Home Office confirmation that it will be legal.

On a secondary note, I'm beginning to receive feebdback from retailers (PSOL included) who would be more than happy to lend their support to a collector's association.


 

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"Everybody online... lookin' good".
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Well, we can but hope!

The PSOL will most likely be able to import on the pretext that they supply film and TV production as well as private individuals, in the same way as Airsoft retailers are allowed to import to sell on to skirmishers, whilst not having to be skirmishers themselves. So private individual imports might not be allowed even though PSOL can get them into the country.

Have to get the official line on that from the Ministry Of Tru... I mean, the HO.

As would I. Good work Eagle.

Harry

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http://www.facebook.com/TheHHACA - @TheHHACA

I would contend that if they're importing under the conditions of the VCRA then non-skirmishers will NOT be able to purchase the PR replica.

How's about that, folks? No PR for you and you and you.

Bummer!



Regarding the HO - should we even consider warning them off?....

Tough call.
 

_________________
 
"Everybody online... lookin' good".
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I would swing in favour of not poking the sleeping dragon to be honest.

Harry

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http://www.facebook.com/TheHHACA - @TheHHACA

Sorry Eagle, I think I'm on the same page as you there, I'm thinking exactly the same thing with regard to individuals.

I'm guessing you picked up on the '...as well as private individuals...' text? I meant that they would be able to import because they sell to TV / film, but not then sell RIFs onto non-exempt parties or individuals.

Pesky interwebs confusing communication.

Had a meeting today at the Home Office, regarding the airsoft defence and how it was going. the details of which will be posted up on Arnies airsoft once we get the minutes through.

However, not being one to miss an opportunity I broached the subject of the Museum defence.

I explained that several collectors wished to set up small museums of their collections, as there didn't seem to be a clear definition of what was a museum and therefore qualify to continue buying. the responce was, as long as an actual small museum is set up and it's not just a get around or excuse the museum defence would apply.

So, there you have it from the horses mouth, set up a museum, open it to the public (all be it by invitation) and you can buy RIF's to your hearts content.

However, don't try and use it as an excuse if you haven't actually set up a museum.

Re the HCG PR I still don't see how airsofters can use that defence for buying a non airsoft RIF.

SAS

_________________
Alan T. Alien
1st Lt Smith, SA "Sidewinder"
A13/TQ1.4.19720EX CMA
Founder of UKCM 13th Regt. 1st Batt. Freebooters
Founder of Special Armaments Section (Heavy Weapons)
"People don't understand. people like me"

I stand, vindicated.


Thanks.

Can you PM this info to Pablo on AA? He can then post the info in that thread of mine.
 

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"Everybody online... lookin' good".
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Hurray! We can take our museum pieces to the US for DCon now!

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Sounds like fairly good news for non-skirmisher types!

Minimiman, just to clear something up... Did they specify exactly what you'd have to do for it to be a museum in the eyes of the law (or the CPS or police seeing as no legal definition exists for a museum as yet) with regards to using that as a defence to the VCRA?

Eagle, you said you'd looked into what you'd need to set up a museum in terms of accessibility, insurance etc. Any ballpark figures on this? The reason I ask is the following quote from AA:

"If you are even thinking of using this as a way to buy RIFs for your own edification, the Home Office does indeed consider that to be using a loophole to avoid prosecution, so don't expect a judge to have much sympathy."

I get the feeling, depending on costs and amount of work involved, that there could be a huge number of small, invitation only, museums springing up..!

 
Off the top of my head, you would need to consider access for the disabled, have the premises subjected to electrical safety tests (cheap - usually about £25 for a single room). I guess there's also the usual health & safety aspects - slip/trip hazards etc but it's just paperwork if there's nothing that needs correcting.

Here are some sites that should help:

www.mla.gov.uk
http://www.museumsassociation.org/
www.museumsgalleriesscotland.org.uk
http://icom.museum/

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/aboutus/business.asp

Public liability insurance shouldn't cost the earth. I'd imagine no more than a couple hundred squid per year. The insurance company would probably ask what levels of traffic you expected in order to quote.

As far as I'm aware, planning consultation with your local council is only required if the museum is to be run as a charity or business.

By far the biggest issue of all however, will be the DDA I think. Disabled access is something that I've not looked into fully but, hey, there's nothing to stop you guys helping out on the research for that.

It may transpire that a domestic location isn't liable for full disabled access but I can't find any definitive info at this point....
 

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"Everybody online... lookin' good".
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No they didn't. As with many of these things they refered to the text of the act, confirmed a Museum would qualify, but more importantly applied the caveat "ultimatly it would be up to a court to decide and a court would look at proof a museum existed"

That means you need a paper trail of proof and are actually setting up a museum, not just pretending to be one.

As it is the seller that is breaking the law, you would have to convince a retailer you were a bona fide museum for the issue to even get to court. A retailer would ask for :-

company paperwork, i.e. letter head, company registration
Insurance
The places the museum is advertised, inc opening times etc
vat registration (if required)

If you can't supply the above, or a dammed good reason for not having them I don't imagine a retailer would serve you as ultimatly it's their neck on the line.

Whilst I understand people who don't skirmish (myself included) wanting to find a way within the law to continue to buy RIFs without having to become a UKARA member, I think this museum defence would be far more hassle and costly than it is worth. I applaud Eagle's investigation in to this of course but it seems to me that it would be cheaper and ultimately less time consuming to simply go to an airsoft site a few time over a period of months and become a UKARA member and buy what you want that way.

I know that people have said airsofting is "not their thing" or they don't have time but is setting up a museum your "thing" not to mention the time I believe it will take to do this and continue to do this, because I imagine unless you are planning on using this defence to buy just ONE RIF then it something you would have to continue to do. Surely one Sunday every month or even every couple of months could be fitted into the schedule.

I guess I don't really see the point in trying to come up with a convoluted (sp) plan when there is already a quite simple method available for people who want to buy and use RIFs responsibly.

Also, as Abe (Gareth ocassionally) mentioned, once the HO get wind of this - if a few people start doing it - then I'm sure they would quickly amend the act to shut this down, thus rendering all your effort a waste of time.

Cheers

Darren