Not sure if you can see it without being a member, but this is where the action is: http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/i ... pic=142132


 

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"Everybody online... lookin' good".
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Well worth looking at that thread, guys.
 

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"Everybody online... lookin' good".
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Update:

I am in the process of formally hiring a solicitor to look into the viability of this 'museum defence'. They assure me that even if it is assessed as viable, it could still go horribly wrong in court if it got that far.

Regarding the fees for this: I will not fund this on my own on behalf of the UK's collecting fraternity. I've done enough groundwork and spent enough time as it is (twice) off my own back (with very little support it seems ) so I'm not about to lose out financially too.

So, if you want an objective legal opinion on the viability of the whole issue, you'll have to put your hands in your pockets and help out.
 

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"Everybody online... lookin' good".
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This is important work Eagle is doing here so lets put our hands in our pockets over this....

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Pfc Glenn Allen ,
1st Batt. 69th Regiment,
Homers Hero's..
Drops so Far.... 29 and counting

Thanks Glenn

I don't imagine it'll be a 'frightener' but it could certainly run into the early hundreds.

One thing I have found out is that running a museum/gallery open to the public is fraught with red tape. Take a look at the AA thread linked above.

As I've mentioned; losing airsoft RIFs isn't my primary concern; losing the ability to buy, import or manufacture licenced and fan-made fictional replicas is! It's worth fighting for.

Mark
 

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"Everybody online... lookin' good".
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Hi Eagle
As much as I’d like too I don’t honestly think I could support this as it stands, ie individuals claiming collections as museums as a defence.
For one, like I said before I just could not see it standing up in court.
Obviously unless you actually did make your home into a museum, which I believe, that when open to the public by invitation or whatever, would have all sorts of red tape and legal connotations.
That would surely make it more trouble than it is worth for most individuals, in the end just to be able to buy RIF’s.

On the other hand, I keep going back to seeing if an established organisation, the likes of the UKCM, could do something to get itself, or part of, classed as a’ travelling museum’ (google it to see a few examples of others).

For example, lets say ‘The UKCM travelling Alien/s Film/s Museum - including the world renowned Harry Harris collection’.
Now this could include all members, who attend an event, to dress up in related costumes, bring screen used and replica props, original film posters, members artwork possibly and anything else related that as a group we had, put on a display/exhibition etc. to 'educate' the attending public.

This would possibly put most of the legal side of things, (insurance, public/disabled accessability etc.) in the hands of the event organisers/venue owners, not the individual or museum.

Advertising etc. to the general public, for where the ‘Travelling Museum’ would be appearing, would be listed on the UKCM site and by the actual event itself.

Oh, isn’t that pretty much what you do now!!!

Some sort of proof of membership might be required, an inventory of members items etc. and it might incur some extra costs to the UKCM, but I’m sure most of us would be willing to pay towards this (in subs/membership fees or the like?)
Possibly even an online Gallery of the 'museums' items.

And then, of course you would still need an accepted way/system to buy the RIF's from the retailers, if needed.

I might (as usual ) just be talking complete rubbish here, but maybe you and your legal eagles could maybe have a think something along these lines?

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Martin 'Victim' Victory
A86/TQ3.4.49421E3
UKCM 13th Regt. 1st Batt. Freebooters


you can't take the PUNK outa Spunkmeyer

 
Thanks for your thoughts. The museum defence will stand up in court. That's written in Law. The problem is, as you say, all the red tape and the issue of proving to the courts that your collection is genuinely open to the public (visitors book?...).

I'm still keen to explore (and put to bed) the museum issue so we'll see how that goes once I get further answers from the relevant bods. It may transpire that 'online' museums will suffice. We can only hope.

I shit you not though; if we do find the museum defence works, it will only buy us time. HMG will close the defence down. Remember that when the subject of 'collectors' was raised to the government when the VCRA was being considered, they said that "collectors don't have a need to collect weapons".

In the meantime, one of the Mods over at Arnie's suggested something that will 'test' the museum defence but have zero risk to myself (or someone else that wants to try). In fact, any UKARA registered skirmishers here want to drop me a PM for details?

Another strong hope we have is forming a national group or association (the ARC?). The UKCM thing would be too small a group - we need to get everyone involved, not just 'us lot'. A lot of people have suggested this, including my legal bod. This group can lobby the government (and 'explain' things to them a bit better than the skirmishers did). We could even get retailers like Prop Store of london on side to help. I'm very confident a national association (and lobby group) will make things happen in our favour.

So, come on you guys - let's get this thing going. If you still want to buy Pulse Rifles, and blasters that is....

Cheers.
 

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"Everybody online... lookin' good".
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I think the word "loophole" would be better than "defence". The defence for airsofters was negotiated and agreed with the government. Setting up a "museum" for the sole purpose of getting around the law is against the spirit of the law, even if it isn't against the letter of the law.

You're right though: It would be shutdown pretty damn fast. This begs the question, Why spend further effort/money investigating this loophole?

Furthermore, why not just go to a few a/s skirmishes, even if you just do what I do: use it as a good walk in the woods and a social gathering?

 
People keep saying "loophole". The museum defence is written in Law so it absolutely can not be regarded as a loophole. An 'exploit', perhaps, I'll concede that... However, there are many examples of exploits that have stood up in court.

Re; skirmishing, I'm far too busy for a start (no, really) and can't commit far ahead (I notice most of them get booked up rapidly). It's not really my 'thing' either.

I'll await the next findings from my 'team' and decide on whether to pursue it from there.

The association thing really must happen though if we're to stand any chance of continuing. I'm assuming UK'ers do want to buy the HCG Pulse Rifle?...
 

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"Everybody online... lookin' good".
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all you need is 3 skirmishes, thats gonna cost about £60. a hell of alot cheaper than getting a soliciter to look into things.

theres a site 5 mins drive from me, so if anyone wants some help getting registered, your welcome to a floor for the night and an AEG to borrow

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M/SGT Rich Hyatt-Dowling (Retd)

UKCM Black ops

Regarding the HGC rifle I think most potential UK buyers are expecting to be able to get them via Propstore as they made the Korben Dallas pistol available after the change in the law took effect.

Harry

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http://www.facebook.com/TheHHACA - @TheHHACA

In that case then if props (fan made or official) are legal to import then we don't need a retailer to import them for us.

Is a Pulse Rifle a RIF or isn't it?... My contention is that it IS a RIF. The C-D Blaster isn't a RIF so PS haven't broken the law supplying it.


 

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"Everybody online... lookin' good".
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Doing something specifically and solely to nullify a law is making use of a loophole in my book.

I don't think anyone in Government thought when adding the museum clause that every Prop Collector, chav, small time criminal or housewife would set up a museum of their own simply to buy RIFs ...

You are proposing an exploit of a loophole in the VCRA. I have no reason to doubt that this strategy would stand up in court as the law stands, but the law would be swiftly changed to close it.

So why bother?

Being an airsofter allows you to buy airsofts, but that is all. It would not for example allow you to buy a PFC Thompson. You can't use the airsoft defence to buy non-airsoft gun shaped objects.

SAS

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Alan T. Alien
1st Lt Smith, SA "Sidewinder"
A13/TQ1.4.19720EX CMA
Founder of UKCM 13th Regt. 1st Batt. Freebooters
Founder of Special Armaments Section (Heavy Weapons)
"People don't understand. people like me"

Good point.

I would be searching for loopholes of my own if I suggested that every prop replica should have some way of expelling an airsoft BB even if it involves putting a BB in the barrel and ejecting it with a flick of the wrist! (NOTE !)

I thought the 'agreement' allowed airsofters to buy 'RIFs'. That covers all bases, surely?

Damn this law - it's so confusing!
 

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"Everybody online... lookin' good".
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If i'm that desperate to get my hands on some RIF's , I'll do what others have suggested. Go spend a few days running around a wood like a loonie doing some airsofting and do it the 'right' way.

No loopholes there, no 'exploits' - you are satisfying the requirements the government have set out with regards to being entitled to purchase RIF's through a legitimate means such as airsofting. And it's not like you're being forced to do something that's totally over the top either.

I'm sorry if you don't have the time or arent interested in doing airsofting but not everyone caught in the 'collectors' boat is the same. I've never done airsofting before but it sounds like good fun and so if it meant having to do that a few times a year to then have the ability to purchase said RIF's then so be it.

Run around, get covered in some mud, have a brew with twigs in it and fire wee plastic balls at people whilst having a laugh. Cost you a few quid but apart from getting a knee trembler off the missus then not much is free these days.

You're openly admitting that you are attempting, or rather looking into a course of action that you call an 'exploit' of a pretty serious piece of legislation. That is your choice to do so, and I believe you have taken that task to hand yourself rather than the 'UK collecting community' pushing it at you.

However as the reception to it on the Arniesairsoft forum showed, don't expect people to agree with it. I certainly can't see how shelling out money to pay for a 'legal opinion' on a 'legal exploit' is justifiable when for 3 days of as pug put it 'strolling around a wood' you will get what you want on a plate.



Chris

Being a 'registered' skirmisher as per the HO requirements absolutely one-hundred per-cent does permits you to get hold of any RIF you like, be it a PFC, Airsoft RIF, resin prop, whatever you like.

There is no specific part of the 'exemption' through regulation skirmishers have that specifies what kind of RIF they are allowed to sell, manufacture or import.

Ok, I give up.

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"Everybody online... lookin' good".
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Look at it this way:
"I want to buy an Airsoft Thompson"
"why?"
"I go airsofting regularily and want am bestest WWII gnu"
"very well, you may pass"

"I want to buy a PFC Thompson"
"why?"
"to go airso...ermm oh"
"THOU SHALT NOT PASS!"

I totally disagree with ya 60, the airsoft defence is to allow airsofters to go airsofting with airsoft guns, you can't use PFCs to airsoft with so how can you justify buying one under the airsoft defence? This might not be explicit in the law but I bet if it came to a courtroom style environment it would be a case of guilty as a puppy sat next to a pile of poo.

Strictly speaking should this museum thing work then it would allow you to buy PFCs, Blankers, Airsofts or anything as any of these could make a valid display piece. (similar to that which re-enactors now enjoy I should think)

SAS

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Alan T. Alien
1st Lt Smith, SA "Sidewinder"
A13/TQ1.4.19720EX CMA
Founder of UKCM 13th Regt. 1st Batt. Freebooters
Founder of Special Armaments Section (Heavy Weapons)
"People don't understand. people like me"

Through the wonders of Google I found a local site:

http://www.cage-airsoft.co.uk/amherst.htm

Might see if the other UKCM local to me want to join up and have a few goes.

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Steve
Corporal in 69th Regt. 1st Batt. Homer’s Heroes.

"I'd like to die at the age of 80 in my own bed, with a belly full of wine and a girl's mouth around my c**k."

I see both strategies as loopholes ("I'm an airsofter so I can buy any RIF", and "let's start my own mickey-mouse museum simply so I can buy any RIF")

However, the first loophole seems slightly more secure and cheaper ...

Exactly as it says on the tin (it doesn't say 'airsoft weapon') - and I would 100% expect that to stand up in court.

However it's the same as the museum thing; the VCRA states categorically that a museum is an accepted defence (something that skirmishers are finding very difficult to understand it seems) so I would expect it to also stand up in court. As long as you could prove you were running a legitimate operation there is no lawyer in the land who could gain a succesful prosecution against you. The issue I put forward was never "would the museum defence stand up" - because I know it would. It's proving it that would be the difficulty.

Anyway, like on AA, this thread is now going off the rails - can we stick to the formation of an association please?


 

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"Everybody online... lookin' good".
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As far as I can see, this thread is perfectly on topic; Is it worth spending time and money investigating this tactic, and how much extra time would this grant us to collect RIFs?

One article in the Daily Mail claiming that evil people continue to buy "evil guns" because of this lack of clarity is all that is needed for the law to be changed again by the swiftest possible method: The New Labour Knee-Jerk.

 
Aye. Which is why we need an association to lobby.

('cos they're comin' outta the god-damn walls! )
 

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"Everybody online... lookin' good".
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